Arena proposals

icebatfan · Two for roughing Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 197

CP Entertainment Center proposals quite entertaining
By Scott McDonald, Hill Country News

The first proposal was presented to the Cedar Park 4A Board on Wednesday by International Facilities Group, which is led by Mike Reinsdorf — son of Chicago Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf.

Developers with big-league ties want minor league sports

If hockey in the Cedar Park Entertainment Center is half as exciting as the show put on before the 4A Board Wednesday, then this may indeed become a hotbed for hockey.

An “A” list of presenters made their best sales pitches to Cedar Park's Economic Sales Tax Corporation in hopes they will be named the owner/operator of a new entertainment center, something the city has flirted with for several years.

The day began at 9 a.m. in the Cedar Park Public Library with IFG's lead man, Mike Reinsdorf. He's the son of Jerry Reinsdorf, owner of the Chicago White Sox and Chicago Bulls. Mike actually owns two minor-league hockey teams, an arena football league team and a Double-A baseball team.

The second group was led by a majority owner of the Austin Ice Bats. The final group was led by the former owner of the NHL's Dallas Stars, Minnesota North Stars and Calgary Flames, with Norm Green even sporting his giant ring commemorating the 1999 Stanley Cup won by the Dallas Stars.

Each group bragged on what it's built and accomplished in the past and each said it was the best fit for Cedar Park.

Now it's up to the 4A Board to crunch numbers, look at all the data and come to a conclusion in finding out which slick-talking, high-dollar developer is best for this town.

“We're going to make a decision as quick as we can, but with prudence,” said 4A Board President Lowell Moore.

The board will meet again on Tuesday at 6:30 p.m. to discuss any issues and concerns and possibly narrow the field to its final two, or perhaps one. The 4A Board has roughly $30 million to bargain with, so now it must choose the right fit.

International Facilities Group (IFG)

IFG has one feather in its cap that can seen on TV, sometimes twice a week - the AT&T Center - the center is home to the San Antonio Spurs, who are in the NBA Western Conference Finals. IFG has worked with teams, owners and cities. Some of their projects include the Toyota Center (Houston Rockets), American Airlines Center (Dallas Mavericks/Dallas Stars), the Laredo Entertainment Center, Invesco Stadium (Denver Broncos) and the beautiful Stockton Arena in California.

When asked the total cost, Reinsdorf told the board, “It all depends on what you want.”

IFG said the cost could be as low as $35 million and upwards of $50 million. They said the target size for a city like Cedar park is to have roughly 5,000 to 6,000 seats for a team from the Central Hockey League or even the East Coast Hockey League.

“In this market I can't realistically see more than 4,000 as the average attendance,” Reinsdorf said. “And if you don't draw well on Friday and Saturday nights then you're going to struggle.”

Reinsdorf went on to say that a center's overall success depends heavily on the success of its first major tenant.

“When a team comes in and doesn't survive, it makes it hard on the next person who comes in.

“Teams that are looking to come here to play, they come here and they know their business,” Reinsdorf said. “We need to know ours, too.”

In reference to events outside of hockey, Reinsdorf said that while concerts are definitely a fan favorite, a city of Cedar Park's size probably shouldn't have more than 10 or 12 in one year.

“Profits on concerts are shrinking and promoters are getting tougher,” Reinsdorf said.

IFG said it was “not realistic to open in 2008.”

CS&J Management

Randy Sanders, who wants to bring his Austin Ice Bats to Cedar Park, said he is ready to shed the Austin name for Cedar Park.

“We would be the Cedar Park Ice Bats,” said Sanders, one of the Ice Bats' majority owners.

CS&J wants to build a venue that will seat 5,000 for hockey and expand up to 7,000 for concerts. He said the design will give the arena an opportunity to expand to 8,000. In addition to hockey, CS&J said it can bring the Harlem Globetrotters, ice shows and a variety of concerts as well as civic happenings like graduations and trade shows. There would be 24 luxury suites and 400 club level seats.

The price tag for CS&J maxes out at $37 million. Of that, Sanders said, $30 million would come from the 4A Corporation and the rest would come from private funding.

Sanders said one way to continuously lure hockey fans would be to keep the Ice Bats' tradition of building each game around a theme.

The Ice Bats currently call Chaparral Ice their home, where 2,000 people can watch the game. Should the CS&J arena not open on time for the 2008-09 season, Sanders said the Chaparral Ice Center has agreed to host games until the Ice Bats move to Cedar Park

Hunt Construction would steer the building phases of the project. Sanders isn't hesitant to say why he thinks CS&J is the right group for the job.

“I think the fact that we pulled together a local investment team (CS&J) and put together what we think is a great design is why we have a solid plan,” Sanders said. “We have a team that can design it, build it and run it.”

Stewart, Green Properties

The final group before the 4A Board was the largest. Stewart, Green Properties had a total of seven people chatting up the board. Norm Green orchestrated the proposal, and the first thing he emphatically said was, “We want to bring the AHL to Cedar Park. We will call it Cedar Park.” He mentioned that a nickname would be announced later.

“We will bring national awareness to this city,” Green said.

The proposal has 6,000 seats for hockey with an additional 1,700 floor seats for concerts. There will be 24 luxury suites, including two large party suites. Included in the plan was a separate ice rink for public skating and an exhibition hall.

“We even go into high-end finishes on the inside,” said Patrick Magill, a senior associate of the BOKA Powell firm in Dallas and representing party in Stewart, Green.

Some of the design projects on Magill's resume include Texas Stadium in Irving, Raiders Stadium in California and a handful of buildings on the campuses of Southern Methodist and Texas Tech universities. They also build high-rise structures.

Stewart, Green actually proposed a $150 million megaplex, of which $30 million is expected to come from the 4A Board while the rest is from financial backers, including Compass Facility Management.

Included in the entire package are a 200-room hotel by Benchmark Hospitality, a park for kids, an outdoor village setting and several eateries. Cedar Park resident Kathy Goeke, a master instructor for ice skating, gave a five-minute presentation on why a second sheet of ice would be beneficial and that an arena of this magnitude could also draw national ice skating competitions.

Andy Long of Compass said the arena would host not only hockey, but concerts, family programs, local sporting events like high school games, community events, festivals, expositions and events that use both indoors and outdoors. They also will provide space for non-profits, charitable groups as well as school and community events.

Green said the Major Indoor Soccer League (MISL) has expressed interest in also taking up residence in the new arena.

When 4A Board President Lowell Moore asked Green if the city would have any say in the operations of the arena, Green simply said, “No.” When Cedar Park Economic Development Director Phil Brewer asked if the the entire project with hotel, restaurants, conference center and park was guaranteed, Green didn't give an answer. Instead, Green flipped the question back to Brewer and said, “Can you guarantee that 100,000 people will live here?”

At the conclusion of their presentation, the seven presenters from Stewart, Green donned hockey sweaters while Green played a recorded DVD of AHL President David Andrews, who encouraged the 4A Board to choose Green and said, “Cedar Park is the right place for the AHL.”

The Decision

After the final group presented, 4A Place 5 member Mitchell Fuller said, “We have a tremendous responsibility to our city.”

After the marathon meeting that totaled seven-and-a-half hours, Moore said, “I think this was extremely productive. I learned a lot and they put a lot of details out there for us on the table.”

The purpose of Tuesday's meeting, Moore said, will be to wrap up a few small details and perhaps begin trimming the list from three.

There was plenty of flash and boastfulness at the meeting Wednesday. No contracts have been signed yet, but it won't be long before the city works out a deal.

The 4A Board, which has worked extensive hours this year, will have to look at more than just numbers and bloodlines and determine which developer works best for the city's interest.
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verylowpriority · Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject:

Interestingly enough, you would have to consider Sanders and Buch the frontrunners in that field given the political climate. Green's proposal won't fly, it's too grandiose, and remember, it took two elections for the voters in Cedar Park to express a desire to build ANYTHING. And they won't like Reinsdorf's answer to the what-will-it-cost question. "Depends on what you want," he said. He and the City Council might as well get started just suing each other now. No reason to wait until the ice freezes.
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zambonirodeo · Five for fighting Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 438

Green's answers really do remind me of the first-go-round with the Stars, they thought CP would be so eager and grateful to have them that they got their legs cut out from under them in the election for various reasons. He seems similarly complacent about actually convincing or wooing them, from those quotes above.

But what's the deal there anyway? The story of Green's exit from the Bats has never been told. Is he in it now for spite? Or could he end up working with the Bats again in the end (whether as is, or by absorbing the team into the AHL). It's also interesting that Global's experience went so badly that the Bats chose to go it without them and they aren't bidding at all.

zambonirodeo · Five for fighting Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 438

Meanwhile, Sanders may want to pass out copies of this (probably already has). Not that all teams and arena builders don't try to get as much as they can for themselves:

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Why arena is a red-ink factory
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By Michael Fitzgerald
Record Columnist
February 14, 2007 6:00 AM

Stockton's new waterfront arena is bleeding money, $2.7million in 2006, and not really cooking as a concert venue. There's a short and a long explanation.

The short explanation: That's show biz - or redevelopment, where the purpose is not profit but renewing the inner city by bringing people back.

The long explanation involves three sports teams and a management company cemented into the arena with long-term, sweet deals regardless of taxpayer losses.

All three teams (Stockton Thunder hockey, Stockton Lightning arenafootball2 and California Cougars indoor soccer) get the lion's share of concessions, catering and sponsorships.

The city gets 12 percent. It ends up in the hole.

The irony is the teams hamper the venue as a concert hall. They get dibs on the best weekend dates, making it difficult to book concerts and other events.

But that's no sweat for IFG, the company hired to manage the arena, because IFG is owned by Chicago's Michael Reinsdorf, who owns the Thunder and the Lightning.

Reinsdorf's teams and IFG profit whether the arena succeeds as a concert venue or flops. So the selection of IFG as the arena's Bill Graham might not have been in the city's best interests.

IFG charges top dollar. Its $243,000 annual management fee is bigger than fees charged by world arena management leader SMG.

"He cut a hell of a deal for his teams," Deputy City Manager Johnny Ford said of Reinsdorf. "We (the city) have a lot of revenue that goes out the door."

Under the terms of the contract, the city cannot fire IFG, even if arena losses increase, Ford says.

The contract is for 10 years. IFG has an option on five more. Taxpayers must pay up to $2.35 million to buy out IFG's contract.

The topper: If IFG were bought out and Reinsdorf could not sell his teams within 90 days, the city would have to buy them.

My understanding of this one-sided deal is then-City Manager Mark Lewis and other leaders wanted to ensure the arena's tenant succeeded so to ensure stability. It appears they gave away the store.

None of this is to say that IFG should be replaced or that the arena must turn a profit, although if IFG cannot project smaller deficits, something's got to give. Also, to be fair, even if the arena had been conceived ideally, the fledgling venue still would have to struggle to establish itself and thrive in a dog-eat-dog market.

But it was not conceived ideally. Its opening was delayed by construction problems, making booking impossible for part of IFG's first year. Even Bill Graham could not book shows without a Winterland.

Reinsdorf's Thunder is a smashing success that has brought excitement and pride to Stockton. The other two teams also have many fans.

IFG has succeeded already in convincing family entertainment promoters that Stockton is a good market, as a raft of shows from Champions on Ice to The Wiggles prove.

IFG also managed to book six adult concerts. Perhaps most important was Bob Dylan, because he was brought by Live Nation, formerly Bill Graham Presents and the area's big dog.

Live Nation went away impressed, said Tara Bulzomi, the arena's senior event manager. "I think that in the events department, they were treated extremely professionally," she said.

Furthermore, two big money pots that pour black ink into many arenas, parking and revenues from suites, went to Stockton instead of the arena's bottom line. And the city's mysterious failure (or the failure of its hired agent) to sell the arena's naming rights, a six-figure loss, is not IFG's fault.

Reinsdorf said he is determined to develop the arena's potential and lower its deficits.

"If I told you that we were hitting on all cylinders today, that's a lie," Reinsdorf said. But, "I'm telling you now: Just as we increased the numbers of shows at the Bob Hope Theatre, we're going to increase the shows at the arena."

icebatfan · Two for roughing Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 197

Evidently, Green also kept referring to Cedar Park as Austin, until one of the board members finally asked him if he really knew where he was.
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bk · Gross Misconduct Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1055

Here's what IFG says about its involvement in the LEC: "IFG was retained to represent the City of Laredo during the negotiations, design, and construction of the arena. IFG's role was to protect the interests of the City and ensure that the City's investment dollars were maximized."

It does seem like the Bats would be the most palatable.
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**Shanny** · The Goddess Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1509

I'm still stuck on the "Cedar Park" Ice Bats. Doesn't really roll off your tongue, does it?

Ick.
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backupgoalie · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:33 am Post subject:

It's better than WILCO BATS. I was gonna start an inhouse hockey team there but they let me out be I could the the team formed. A brand new meaning for the term "5 hole".

MRice62377 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:40 am Post subject:

MRice62377 · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:46 am Post subject:

I'd also like to point out that as of this post VLP has made 666 posts and boasts a -6 karma. Talk about karma!!! He's a lawyer, folks.
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verylowpriority · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:34 am Post subject:

LOL....I'm posting this just to get off of that number....and as for my plus/minus, it all comes from bandit, so to some degree I wear it as a badge of honor.

Everyone hates lawyers until they need one.
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bk · Gross Misconduct Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1055

At least it's not the Leander Ice Bats in which case we'd be the LIBs. I ain't no lib.
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“I’m so frustrated with the business. If you look at my junior stats, there’s a lot of guys that come out of juniors with those kind of stats that sign pretty big contracts.” --James Hiebert

verylowpriority · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject:

Yeah, the "Cedar Park Ice Bats" doesn't do much for me either. Do they even have any bats?

I've never quite figured out what an "ice bat" is anyway.
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binky · Unsportsmanlike Conduct Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 337

In case you all forgot my post a long time ago, let me remind you. Norm green's son worked for the bats & Buch who does so well at this, Fired him(surprise surprise) Norm Green pulled out & can you blame him? I told you all he would be putting in for the rink. Do you honestly think Buch will get the rink over these two proposals? Please, He already has a bad reputation in Austin but none of you seem to know that.Any way you may still have hockey & that's the main thing. Whether it's AHL or CHL who cares. You may also still have hockey in the Chap. but it will probably be junior.

verylowpriority · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject:

blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah
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backupgoalie · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:47 pm Post subject:

Hate to admit it BUT if I'm handicapping the race the Bats appear to be a long shot at this time. But it aint over til it's over.

bk · Gross Misconduct Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1055

Binky didn't you also say it would be announced a month or two ago that we were moving to the USHL?

CP is screwy so who knows. I can see them disliking some things about any of these. But given how hard it's been to dislodge them of this $30M I have a hard time seeing them agreeing to $150M. All they are going to see in that offer is requirements for 5 zillion concessions from the city. Green's first offer to CP - assuming he was involved in that Stars proposal - was awful from a taxpayer viewpoint.
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“I’m so frustrated with the business. If you look at my junior stats, there’s a lot of guys that come out of juniors with those kind of stats that sign pretty big contracts.” --James Hiebert

verylowpriority · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject:

Well that's really the problem, is that they're all taxpayer boondoggles to one degree or another. And the voters know it. And the City Council knows it.

The economics of the matter are really kinda bleak, because this area already has a large number of entertainment venues. It's just really hard to put together a business model for a new building that has a high probability of success.
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**dfwbat** · Gross Misconduct Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1184

Question:

Where do teams for the NBADL and Arena Football play?

What is the city and/or TU wanting (fee-wise) for the Bats to be able to play in the same arena/complex? I'm sure this has been thought of and looked over, and the city of Austin, and TU are wanting waaaaay too much....
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backupgoalie · Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject:

The Bats could rent out the Expo center for a complete season for the price of one night in the drum. Kinda like hookers do you save up for once a year or go for it once a month?

zambonirodeo · Five for fighting Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 438

Granted, this is only one newspaper article, but unless the council gets delusions of grandeur all over again, which could cost them money, I would think the Bats are still the safe bet. Literally. The other two are question marks as projects and unknowns as far as the team.

I don't think Green had any involvement in the first Stars/AHL proposal. That was all Hicks' Southwest Sports, he was long gone from the Stars by then. AHL--wise the Stars are now firmly entrenched in Iowa too of course. Selling the idea of bringing in some random affiliate is less strong. While I would still take the AHL as a fan happily, it's not actually so glamorous compared to the CHL that you can excite the people of Cedar Park or really expect to draw more fans. And of course it can be decidedly unglamorous if the team is no good or the NHL parent is a pain in the ass -- evidence of that is already in Texas a few times over (in Houston too this year).

I also have a hard time believing Binky's version of why Green pulled out of the Bats (shocking, I know). I figure Green got out, so his kid got out -- not that his kid was a normal employee. Frankly if that version were true it makes Green look worse (not a serious businessman, and even more of a meddler, since that's what JB gets accused of) than Buch. Which is not to say, obviously, that the two parties didn't fall out.

icebatfan · Two for roughing Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 197

First of all, for an AHL team you need a minimum of 8000 seats. I seriously doubt the area could support that.

Add the fact that AHL tickets cost way more than CHL tickets and you're pricing lots of folks out of the market. CP knows that.

CP also knows, or ast least they've heard it a billion times, that once you get above the AA level, you lose that opportunity to "mingle" with the players. That's a decent selling point for AA hockey as well. That pretty much goes away at the AHL level and above.
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blackbiscuit · Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:37 am Post subject:

"I told you all he would be putting in for the rink"

You told us something we already knew, assclown!

Reach down and yank your head out!

BB
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blackbiscuit · Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:40 am Post subject:

bk · Gross Misconduct Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1055

Are AHL prices that much higher? Aren't a lot of the high salaries there covered by the NHL team? Here are some comparisons.

Rampage - almost all tickets are either $16 or $25
http://www.sarampage.com/artman/uploads/3-20__ra07_pricing_map.jpg

Aeros - Except for glass seats, they range from $13 to $31
http://aeros.com.ismmedia.com/ISM3/std-content/repos/Top/AerosSeasonticketbrochure.pdf

Most of ours are $17.50 or $20.

I don't know about add-on fees etc., but we have one for Chap Ice that's not included above I believe. And I'd say it's a given our prices will rise when we go to CP, so we'll be pretty close to AHL prices unless I'm missing something.

One thing with the AHL is you can't just add a franchise. They are looking to get to a 1-1 ratio with the NHL I suspect, but it's not like the CHL where they can vote to add as many teams as they want. More likely they'd need to relocate an existing franchise wouldn't they?
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binky · Unsportsmanlike Conduct Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 337

Here's a thought! Dallas stars affliate. Nice & close to Austin? BB I'm sure there was more involved then we care to know about. I have no doubt about that.But if Green wants to buy his son a hockey team than more power to him.I wouldn't want to cross a man who has money that talks.

verylowpriority · Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:

I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before the Austin area gets double-A hockey at triple-A prices, either to pay for the new building or to pay for the lack of a new building.

I've been saying this for years, but in this market, smaller-smaller-smaller is better-better-better. And I wonder if anyone of the Three Amigos peddling their wares to the CP City Council has heard me. Of the three proposals, Team Buch probably comes closest (but in my opinion not close enough) to what I've always suggested, which is to construct a bit of a micro-arena, and to do it with as much of one's own money as possible. Maybe 5,000 seats, but 4,000 or 4,500 would be better. Keep construction and operation costs manageable. Don't engage in can't-win competition with large venues, instead, swallow up all of the demand for a smaller, more versatile facility, and create demand as you go.

I think it's easy in this instance to lose sight of the forest for the trees. All these arena developers ever seem to focus on is how many suites can I jam into it, and how much money can I get for naming the thing after some soft drink or potato chip company?

Those kinds of things are a lot more important when you're building a larger arena. I think they're less important when you build a smaller and more versatile building for a broader range of uses. I also think you benefit the tenant, or tenant/owner, by building a facility that the tenant can sell out with some regularity. If I owned a CHL team, I'm pretty sure I'd rather have an average attendance of 3,500 in a 4,000 or 4,500 seat arena, than the same average attendance in a building that seats 6,000. If the tenant is financially viable and ultimately successful, the building will be financially feasible, and I think ultimately successful. If the building out-prices the tenant, and/or if the tenant can't fill the building, there's no sense building it in the first place.

And a sold out arena is the kind of thing that self-generates future demand. A "micro-arena" increases the value of your tenant's product without increasing the cost. (I know that there's somebody out there saying to their monitor screen, "VLP is nuts, if that were true the Bats' best course of action would be to stay at Chap Ice forever...." No, believe me, there is nothing about the Bats staying at Chap Ice forever that should ever be confused with anything that is or may be "financially feasible." Financial analysis of a new building versus the economics of staying at Chap Ice is truly an "apples and oranges" pursuit.)

Forget the luxury boxes. Focus on building a jewel of a building that is modernistic and pleasing to the eyes, that is ergonomic and user-friendly, that has state-of-the-art multimedia capabilities, and good acoustics and sight lines, and is adaptable to a variety of uses. I think it'd be a winner.
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bk · Gross Misconduct Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 1055

One reason for making it a little bigger is that it needs to be big enough to be configured for HS graduations. Right now I bet most Leander ISD schools go to the Erwin Center for the cattle call graduations they have there. That's pouring a ton of money down a toilet to use a facility that sucks for that purpose, is crap when it comes to parking, and where they are doing so many they are pushing you in one door and 30 seconds later pushing you out another.

For HS graduation you obviously can't use the whole place, and I bet a big school like CPHS or Leander HS could have 4-5K guests and 500-600 graduates at graduation. If they could get some of these people like Leander, Round Rock, and maybe even Pflugerville to use a facility there all those parents of seniors will be a lot happier than screwing with the damn Erwin Center.
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icebatfan · Two for roughing Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 197

You took the words out of my mouth, BK. Also, you have to take into consideration the concerts and ice shows, etc. 4500 might be OK for just hockey, but it's not enough for other entertainment which generally draws much better than hockey.

One of the biggest reasons the public voted for it last time (couple of years ago) was because of the high school graduation. When I moved here in 1986, we had 1 high school. WE now have 3 with a 4th opening up next year.

Bet we could even draw other city's graduations here too.
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CerebralASSassin · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject:

Norm Green is a clown. I will never forgive him for moving the North Stars. Neither will thousands of others. I guess thats what happens when you are acussed of sexual harassment and you stop getting what you want because of it. You pick up your toys and leave the sandbox.